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    Greg and Beth

    the political and personal musings of two
    mountaineers living in west-central Florida
     
    On McCain vs. Obama Comment
    Nick, 10/22/08 8:29:11 pm
    The last ditch effort on the part of the McCain campaign to brand Obama as a socialist, while true, is very hypocritical. McCain was a strong advocate of the bailout package. He voted in favor of it. Now, in his offense (yes, you read that right), other trait...er, senators did as well. Anyways, I digest...Barack Delano Obama is a socialist. McCain voted in favor of the largest industrial (think: banking industry) nationalization in the US since FDR. I have a hard time believing John Delano McCain will stop, slow, or [stand in the way of a moving] socialism and its advance in our government. The executive budget of the United States is $3 trillion (and more if you add $700 billion for bank nationalization and $100 billion on wars, etc. that don't get included in the planned budget). Show me where McCain voted against the budget. Show me where McCain advocates privatizing Social Security. Show me where McCain advocates cutting any spending except for vague overtures to "stopping pork barrel spending." Just like pork is hardly a real meat when compared with beef or lamb, pork barrel spending is hardly important when compared to real meat programs (read as: Social Security, Medicare, a $700, wait...$800 billion "bailout/rescue/we're-all-gonna-die-if-we-don't-na
    tionalize-our-banks" program, an $85+ billion loan to AIG, who has lost 5 billion, 7 billion and 5 billion the last 3 quarters, respectively, a $600-700 billion defense budget, No Child Left Behind).

    I guess at least he won't take our (your guns)...

    Anyways, good luck folks...capitalism is dead in America and John McCain stood as part of the firing line, pulling the trigger no less than Barack Vladimir Ilich Obama.

    [Comments are closed after a month.]

    Re: On McCain vs. Obama
    Gregory Morris, 10/22/08 8:56:20 pm
    Sad but true. We're trying to keep that quiet until after November though. It isn't that anyone really wants McCain, but there weren't any other electable conservatives running.

    Shhhh.
    Re: On McCain vs. Obama
    The Whited Sepulchre., 10/22/08 9:48:46 pm
    True. All True.
    Therefore, I vote Libertarian.
    Is there ANY Republican who could pass your (excellent) litmus test outlined above?

    Allen in Fort Worth
    Re: On McCain vs. Obama
    Nick, 10/23/08 3:23:41 am
    Allen,
    There are some out there (although I'm not sure there are any Republican Senators that would count). Ron Paul (R-TX) is one. Jimmy Duncan (R-TN) is another (he's my congressman and I am proud that he is as I used to be in WV, where Allan Mollahan was my district's representative...). They are not perfect themselves (no one really is perfect), but they are very much not socialists and that goes a long way in my book. Also, anyone who voted against the "rescue plan" can go to the head of the line of those who at the least are not traitors and at the most pass the not-socialist test.

    I would vote Libertarian, but I'm not sure I buy Babar's prodigal son routine. Maybe he's genuine and maybe he's not.
    Re: On McCain vs. Obama
    Gregory Morris, 10/23/08 6:47:22 am
    Well, that begs the question then... are you going to vote on your principals (i.e. - vote for nobody, or for a third party) or are you going to take a big ol' bite of McShitSandwich like most real conservatives and libertarian-lites?

    I think it is hard to argue that voting for Obama or a third party as a means of "punishing" a corrupt GOP will produce favorable results in the long run. Likewise, not voting is the same as voting for Obama this election. Of course being a Tennessee voter means your vote won't really matter as much as someone in FL, OH, or PA.

    I can see why it would be hard for a far-north libertarian to fathom voting for McCain, but I think it is clear that you can more easily justify a vote for a center-left Rino than a far-left Socialist.
    Re: On McCain vs. Obama
    Nick, 10/23/08 5:46:56 pm
    "Likewise, not voting is the same as voting for Obama this election."
    Haha...ok, Mr. Kimbrew...

    I will be leaving the presidential spot blank. I will vote for Jimmy Duncan for congress and will vote against Senator Alexander (whether that means leaving it blank or I think there is a libertarian running, although I don't know much about him). I don't know yet about local elections...I've thus far been too lazy to examine the local cronies.

    "or are you going to take a big ol' bite of McShitSandwich like most real conservatives and libertarian-lites? "
    I intend to keep my mouth clean on this one...no amount of orbitz gum can clean up that kind of dirty mouth, even if the cute blonde chick says it can.

    "I think it is hard to argue that voting for Obama or a third party as a means of "punishing" a corrupt GOP will produce favorable results in the long run."
    Actually, I've heard that a lot lately, but think 1992 and all the conservatives who went with Perot. 1994 marked a sweeping change back toward real conservatism (although, of course, we know how that turned out...). Maybe conservatism and capitalism really are dead and can never be revived in America.

    I just cannot vote for anyone who voted for the bank nationalization.

    "A Time to Kill" time...

    Imagine McCain were a decent candidate (again, we're just imagining here). He advocated some moderately conservative tax policies. He wanted to cut "pork barrel" spending. He's a reformer.
    Now imagine McCain voted to seize all privately owned firearms in the US.

    Of course, he didn't, but he did vote and advocate for something that in my view is just as bad.
    Re: On McCain vs. Obama
    Gregory Morris, 10/23/08 6:42:41 pm
    "Of course, he didn't, but he did vote and advocate for something that in my view is just as bad. "

    I disagree there. The US Government using taxpayer money to buy into private banking was a terrible thing, but it isn't the same as taking away firearms. First of all, there is an explicit protected right to arms, as opposed to a lack of permission for the bailout. Picking nits, perhaps. The other thing is that technically now all Americans own part of those banks. It is socialist in the worst way, but the taxpayer could theoretically gain from it. I know, it won't happen, and I don't believe they did the right thing. On the other hand, there is nothing to be gained by seizing lawfully held firearms.

    Plus, the bailout didn't cause a massive armed insurrection. I'm not sure an order to seize all firearms wouldn't be met with violence.

    Now that we have that out of the way, I agree that socialism is part of the slippery slope towards revoking of constitutional rights. In fact, there is a far greater likelihood of a successful mass confiscation of firearms under a "completely socialist" government. That is why I believe beating Obama is of prime importance. Sure, it is just stemming the tide of socialism for the moment, but it is also urgent to do so right now. An Obama presidency, with an socialist-controlled congress, would be devastating to the country.
    Re: On McCain vs. Obama
    Nick, 10/25/08 9:14:11 am
    There is actually an enumerated right that is the same as the lack of authority for the bailout. Both 9A and10A.

    "Plus, the bailout didn't cause a massive armed insurrection. I'm not sure an order to seize all firearms wouldn't be met with violence."
    It would have 150 years ago. It would have if people had any concept of what just happened to our country. But you're right that even now, a seizure of firearms would still today. Unfortunately, there is no NEA (well, there is the teacher's union of the same acronym, but no national economics association) nor a MOA (money owners of america).

    "The US Government using taxpayer money to buy into private banking was a terrible thing, but it isn't the same as taking away firearms."
    The government didn't "buy" into private banking. It forced itself upon private banking. I'm not sure it counts as selling when done under duress. Of course, a couple major banks were fine signing on the dotted line, but several weren't and needed no "help" from the taxpayers. Think eminent domain on the grandest scale we've seen since Tennesseans "sold" their land for the Manhattan Project. The problem here is that people can say, oh, well the government only bought like 5% stakes in the banks. Well, if I owned 5% stock in a company, I would not get to tell them what to do and when. I would not be able to force my preferred regulations on them. Now, if I had 51% stock in a company, I could. But the government doesn't need 51% because it's the government. It can force restructuring with only 3 or 4 or 5% stake in these banks and it can force them to agree to those terms.

    And as far as the taxpayers, do you think you'll ever see any money returned to you because of this? I might, because I earn a good deal less than you.
    Also, how can this help the taxpayer when it can't help the banks? The assets are still worthless and the asset-backed securities are still worthless. Sure there is some artificial capital in there now because the taxpayers made a generous "donation."

    Anyway, the latter part of this comment is a bit rambly and jumpy, but the point is this. There are two things that have stemmed the abuse of the people by government throughout history: money and guns. The bailout is nothing more than a seizure of wealth and a dumping of this wealth into a market that can't do anything with it, so it will rot, while instead, they could have left the wealth of the people with the people, where it will be used or saved. I prefer using the wealth option to avoid government abuse, as it is less messy. But it seems with the wealth option gone (or dwindling at least because of the bailout: thanks senators obama and mccain, and the other traitors), we are going to begin running out of other means of stopping the advance of government.
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